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with the day of victor WWII to my fellow soldiers Isara Mo Joe Absher #DF a-born #OldSchool
If he’s shooting at me, I’m not gonna take the time to ask
what if he is running from you or trying to get your gun ? NO relevance to any resent events Just asking Bob Wizenhut you should be more concerned with the mission of God in all this
Troy Day If he’s trying to get my gun I should be more concerned with his salvation than my own life? I don’t think so. If he’s running from me, the only way I’d be allowed to shoot him is if he already took shots at me or was caught emplacing and IED something. In both cases he already made his choice and now he’s living with the consequences
Good question
This argument always comes back to the difference between kill and murder. There is biblical justification for killing especially in a time of war or protecting your family.
As far as shooting an enemy combatant I would want to be a sniper in order to inflict maximum pain on the enemy in the hopes that it would drive them to make peace.
in World War II the military discovered that only 15% of the guns were fired. People had an ingrained caution against killing. Afterwards the military changed their training tactics to break down that aversion to killing.
We kill enemy combatants for a greater cause. It is never wise to fight a war without the absolute determination to win!
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy is just stirring an argument.
Iam sure Troy won’t let a mugger run away with his Smart Phone preacher and teacher that he is but will yell at the top of his voice.. Thief Thief Thief and let’s pray he doesn’t have his pistol around for surely he will shoot to kill..
Isara Mo … He is a cowboy after all.
It is very likely the man will kill you first because you went to war with a misinterpretation of Ephesians 6:12 mindset and while you are trying to figure out which one to shoot the devil or the man, the man goes for your jugular while you speak in tongues and you just die like fool thinking you are doing God a favor!
Not only him who has not heard of Jesus but even the one who had heard and believed in Jesus and serves an enemy country….you don’t say shalom Haleluyah praise be the Lord but you fingers must play music with the trigger otherwise you will find yourself out of thd tent in a blink of an eye.
Ever since Jesus left this place wars and wars have been fought and soldiers
have killed their brethren in battle..
Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser and to God that which is God’s is very trying in warfare..
God says “do no kill..” but has not said that when you see a sword swung to cut off your neck just stay put. God has inserted in every creature an inbuilt system for self defence self protection..
and you go to heaven – where would that man go? And will be the one sending him / her there
Troy Day
If we are to argue from that perspective then a born again child of God shouldn’t join an earthly army because he has to shed blood in defence of his country and has to kill the enemy even a brother in Christ who is a soldier in the enemy’s army..
Are there born again judges who sentence criminals to the gas chambers?.. They are doing a disservice to the Word because the word says forgive 70 times…
Jesus didn’t refuse to pay the tax. He did what earthly laws demand. A soldier is trained to shoot and kill the enemy. He is not given a list to chose ftom eg Troy Day, Pentecost…leave him.
The supernatural soldier can shoot a brethren in combat then both them can go heaven. Shooting a non believer in combat is a duty and it is not you who sends him where ever he goes.. We don’t have that power.
Isara Mo that’s good preaching!
If the answer is no because he would go to hell, then the same answer applies to any lethal action. Even if he heard the gospel before but once didn’t accept it, he might have accept it in the future. Then you can not kill him anyway.
That’s prolly why so many early Pentecostals were pacifists even when it meant trial and jail.
that is not WHY early Pentecostals were so – their conviction was carrying arms ANY arms; where would such person go? And will be the one sending him / her there
I think that scenario is in a class of its own!
how do you mean? Roger L. Frederick
“Wars!”
Roger L. Frederick so you just send them down yonder?
If it is O.K. with you. Let’s just leave it there! I’m not the one to ask or debate it!
Roger L. Frederick
Thanks Roger and out
Isara Mo so its OK or is it NOT ok?
Sadly, a whole bunch of Nazi solders had to go into eternity without knowing Jesus. I was in Vietnam, but never shot anyone, but was rready to.
he was delta too Joe Absher
It’s a hard question every man needs to answer biblically and prayerfully to their own conscience before God in obedience to him . grace .
It’s a hard question every man needs to answer biblically and prayerfully to their own conscience before God in obedience to him . grace .
and frankly in this country we have the luxury of being a conscientious objector and even a volunteer army. sadly it’s not the case just anywhere ?
should God send unbelievers to hell, if they have never heard the Gospel before? Why do we make it hard to believe Jesus to be guaranteed Eternal Life by unbiblically making repentance/turning of behavioural sins and committment to obeying Jesus as Lord, as unbiblical conditions of believing?
this is a very calvinistic statement I am noticing the boy or the girl is straight up 5-point grace Joe Absher
Where’s all your so called doctors of divinity friends . don’t they have a heart for lost souls .
I don’t think that’s even calvinist . a calvinist will tell you deserve hell . most anybody would say the same . only the most proud and hardened would deny the justice and judgment of the Almighty
of course God sends unbelievers to hell. I was commenting on the need to share the Gospel of Peace with enemies; just as Jesus did with the thief on the Cross, with no mention of repentance or tongues. After His agony on the Cross, what does Jesus think of our additions to believing to make it harder for unbelievers to believe in Him guaranteeing them Eternal Life?
TELL US George Hartwell Why do American Christians support the military-industrial rogue state? Todd Jordan
It does not seem to be an issue for the American Christian.
Galatians 5:1 KJV — Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
“No king but King Jesus”
“Give me liberty or give me death”
It’s true . americans despise cowards and fight tyrants throw off their oppressors and reject any monarchy as a divine right .
Galatians 5:1 KJV — Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. It is our custom however to allow for pacifists and hold a man’s obedience conscience sacred
“No king but King Jesus”
“Give me liberty or give me death”
It’s true . americans despise cowards and fight tyrants throw off their oppressors and reject any monarchy as a divine right .
We do, as our custom, allow for pacifists and hold a man’s obedience to conscience sacred .
Exodus 15:3 KJV — The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
how many did Jesus kill on the Cross? Didn’t the Jews kill Him because Jesus wasn’t going to kill the Roman enemy?
RichardAnna Boyce Troy Day When it’s all said and done Jesus will be the single biggest killer in history having slaughtered the entire armies of the antichrist and the kings of the east. He will not use a gun. He will use the word of his mouth (Rev.19:15). I don’t believe it will be a gentle death either. It will be a slaughter! For the Bible says, “Blood will fill the entire valley of Armageddon up to the horses bridal.“
Others like
Hitler (20Mil),
Stalin(15Mil),
Mao(60Mil),
Muhammad(270Mil) will have caused more people to be murdered & killed in history; but as far as one person doing the killing it will be Jesus who gets the gold medal!
Defending those we love is not a sin.
Neil Steven Lawrence the Biblical Words are love and grace (John 3:16) even during the Great Tribulation, until the Great White Throne Judgment, when as you say, all unbelievers will live for eternity in hell. Jesus defended those He loves by dying in their place on the Cross, Gal 2:20 it is no longer we who lives our lives, but Christ lives His life through us.
RichardAnna Boyce I agree with everything you just said. How is that a response to what I said?
Neil Steven Lawrence grace UNTIL .. then judgement.
RichardAnna Boyce With enemy combatants law must rule. If they are captured and taken out of combat, then grace can apply, unless they have committed a war crime. While they are in combat again the righteous cause I stand for, it is my duty to wipe as many out as possible. Never fight a war unless your goal is absolute victory.
Gal 2:20 We no longer live our life starting wars around the globe; but the Prince of PEACE JESUS lives his peaceful life through us.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Never fight a war unless your goal is ABSOLUTE VICTORY..
RichardAnna Boyce “Peace through strength“ & “walk tall but carry a big stick“
“Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.” – Sir Winston Churchhill
“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate, you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” – Sir Winston Churchill
Revelation 19:21
“The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”
Neil Steven Lawrence Gal 2:20 We no longer live our life starting wars around the globe; but the Prince of PEACE JESUS lives his peaceful life through us, while we are alive on this earth; until the Great White Throne Judgment, when as you say, all unbelievers will live for eternity in hell.
RichardAnna Boyce i’m not saying we go around warmongering I am simply saying when the time is required to fight we should not shrink back. This same concept is related to the scriptural admonition to be vigilant.
Isaiah 53:10 KJV — Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
May be you’ve forgotten the true cause of Christ death .
could you? Isara Mo Neil Steven Lawrence
Did you see my three answers above?
America has been poisoned by the “Hollywood” version of taking care of bad guys. You know the predictable scenario where the good guy beats the bad guy but doesn’t finish him off. Then as the good guy is comforting the people who were hurt and he was trying to protect – then the bad guy gets back up at the rear of the camera frame and almost captures or kills the good guy. Then the good guy is now somehow justified to finish off the bad guy with a mortal blow. This mamba-pamby type of “Hollywood” justice is not real justice.
If the enemy is trying to kill my family, friends, fellow soldiers, myself, harm the country I am duty bound to protect – my righteous duty will be to utterly obliterate them ASAP, with no hesitation!
My model is Jesus Christ: King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who will utterly slaughter all the demon-crazed Anti-Christ and Kings of the East armies in the Battle of Armageddon. Jesus does it all by Himself with the word of His mouth. And the blood rises to the horses’ bridle for a span of 180 miles (1600 stadia). This will be the biggest battle slaughter in history.
I repeat what I said above:
When it’s all said and done Jesus will be the single biggest killer in history having slaughtered the entire armies of the antichrist and the kings of the east. He will not use a gun. He will use the word of his mouth (Rev.19:15). I don’t believe it will be a gentle death either. It will be a slaughter! For the Bible says, “Blood will fill the entire valley of Armageddon up to the horses bridal.“
Others like
Hitler (20Mil),
Stalin(15Mil),
Mao(60Mil),
Muhammad(270Mil) will have caused more people to be murdered & killed in history; but as far as one person doing the killing it will be Jesus who gets the gold medal!
Defending those we love is not a sin.
Neil Steven Lawrence I see Isara Mo not answering
Troy Day
In the military academy people are trained to shoot the enemy not the devil.:
In Bible college people are TOLD to shoot the devil not the man.
Now war in no respector of a tongue speaking soldier but succumbs to the one who shoots first fast and accurately..
tell us NOW Isara Mo Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele
combat doesn’t give the opportunity to know such things. Part ane a big one of the horror of war.
shooting against a pagan nation pretty much give you all the information you will need to make up your mind
A better question: should Christians kill in combat, ever?
Trevor Hatfield
They have killied not only in combat but in Covert operations..
Should preachers kill in self defence?.
Yes
Trevor Hatfield. Tell me your salvation story
irrelevant to OP except if you know they are going to hell foe eternity which some indeed will be
Christianity changed after it merged with the Roman empire. Prior to that believers were not allowed to join the military or take up any arms at all. They took the sermon on the mount very seriously. The early church would not recognize today’s church. We merge the kingdom of God with the kingdoms of this world. We have beat our plows back into swords.
to join the military of ROME was not just Christian It was also pagan, non-Roman, city vs province, patricias vs plebs Not as simple as you present it to be And somewhat irrelevant to the question because Peter attempted to kill unsaved person, the Roman soldier at the cross got saved – did he continue to kill? The question from OP remains clear and open
Troy Day read the early church writings. They are unanimous. Its not even a debate. Christians were not allowed to be in the military. They were not allowed to participate in combat. If a Christian was already in the Roman army they could remain, since they could not resign under penalty of death, but they could not use the sword or kill. This was the time of the great Paks Romana (Roman peace), so fortunately much of the soldier life was constructive things like road building.
Peter was chastised for attacking the soldier. See what the scholars say about that passage. It matches what the early Christians wrote about it. A final teaching against using violence of any kind. Even when your very Lord is in danger.
This was a tough one for me to swallow. I am from a military family. But it is the truth. Christianity is a religion of nonresistance from the beginning. It merged with the world and lost this teaching.
Chris Gibbs x-delta here so no personal argument against that BUT we need to consider the following
Augustine framed the concepts of original sin and just war as they are understood in the West. When Rome fell and the faith of many Christians was shaken, Augustine wrote The City of God, in which he defended Christianity from pagan critics and developed the concept of the Church as a spiritual City of God, distinct from the material City of Man. Augustine’s work defined the start of the medieval worldview, an outlook that would later be firmly established by Pope Gregory the Great
WERE THE CHURCH FATHERS PACIFISTS?
The answer of the pre-Constantinian church was negative; the Christian as an agent of God for reconciliation has other things to do than to be in police service . . . . Christians saw their task as one of patient suffering, not taking over themselves the work of the police . . . . The post-Constantinian church obviously accepted government service by Christians, but for reasons which cannot be deemed adequate.
Consider his judicious conclusion on Tertullian:
In the end, how is Tertullian to be interpreted? We have noted the willingness in his earlier writing to refute the accusation that Christians were indifferent to—or enemies of—the state. His response is that “we fight alongside you and serve in your army.” In his later response he waxes increasingly resistant to the idea of Christians serving in the Roman army: there exists a fundamental incompatibility between the two masters of Christ and military service. We might reasonably conclude that his later argument against soldiering and warfare is set forth precisely because not all Christians agreed with him. And indeed this response is understandable since by this time baptized Christians were joining the army. Tertullian’s increasingly rigorist stance, however, is neither a necessary outcome of the position of the apostolic Church nor a reflection of the New Testament’s ethical teaching. And because of his wholesale condemnation of civil service (including serving as a ruler), literature, art, forms of dress, and signing of contracts, his opposition to military service is properly understood as part of the logic of apostasy.
Or Origen:
What is noteworthy in Origen’s argument is that Christians do participate responsibly in civil affairs, and they do support the governing authorities, since Scripture requires as much. Thus, unlike contemporary pacifist interpretations of early Christian history, Origen not only does not deny that Christians are serving in the military (a matter which Tertullian also concedes, even when both are opposed), but more importantly, he sees the need for Christians to support the authorities and contribute to a just and civil society even when he believes that Christians should not be soldiers.
FINALLY
JESUS in the NT – Revelation is presented as warrior conquering the world destroying all unbelievers in hell
Troy Day
Here is a good video debate on the issue. Yes the ante nicene orthodox position was non resistance. Just war theories came along well after that with Augustine. After the church merged with Rome.
I highly recommend this video since it gives both perspectives on this issue.
Nonresistance vs. Just war
https://youtu.be/K4xQaDDKY7k
Chris Gibbs Would you happen to have some quotes from early church writings about believers in the military?
When I get home later I can try an look some up. I don’t have any references at the moment. Some Google searches may also get ya started.
John Cordaro on my honeymoon atm. I will try to remember though. 🙂
John Cordaro I do recommend the video above. It helps frame the conversation nicely and gives both perspectives. It should have some references within it to refer to.
Chris Gibbs Congratulations!
John Cordaro thank you!
this is NOT a small issue Isara Mo do you obey commander in chief when he tells you attack the crows with tear gas beat down arrest OR do you care for their soul enough not to shoot them down while still sinners? Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele
Troy Day. There is a time and place for everything. A Christain military person is doing God’s will by defending his country.
John Allen amen to that. The reason we have religious freedom today to worship Christ is because Christians fought and continue to fight for our country.
Troy Day
Give unto Ceasers that which is Ceasers and give unto God…
When you are in uniform you follow the regulations of the uniform and when you are in the pulpit you follow the regulations of the pulpit..
Believe this question needs to be analyzed.
If one has a satisfactory answer, what does one have?
How is the answer useful?
latest statement about Martin Gugino should sober all of us no matter our political persuasion. Not only because it is slander. Not only because it so shamelessly attempts to justify an act of obvious brutality. Not only because it is designed to convince us that facts are not facts, as all totalitarian speech does. But also because it seeks to make us distrust our own compassion for those who are harmed. This is deeply, deeply, deeply wicked. And it’s the kind of wickedness that is infectious. We have to denounce it as such.
Could you kill a fellow believer in combat?
irrelevant to OP except IF you believe they will go to hell
Troy Day
It’s not irrelevant. I’m a vet. Just because gubmint says it’s okay, doesn’t mean it is. BTW…. there won’t be any Born Again believers in hell
Daniel P Campbell So am I Many are vets What’s vet got to do with it? – the question from OP is are you the one sending them to hell
Troy Day
Could you kill anyone in combat?
Daniel P Campbell I am not at liberty discussing my skills and past in this group However, I can tell you with certainty that if you killed a non believer you are sending them to hell for eternity
And no I am not running from you a question BUT you know well even a normal person in combat under such circumstances could do things no one believed they could do
Troy Day
How do you know for sure they’re a non believer? Do you stop to ask them?
I think the Question boils down to… Should you kill or not. Some professions are not compatible with Christianity.
No It does not boil down to that You can kill a chicken and go on This one is about an unsaved person going to hell after they die Should you be the preacher who sent them to hell? That is the question you see
Troy Day Obviously by Killing I am referring to a Human being.
It doesn’t matter whether you kill a believer or an unbeliever. Killing is a sin. I don’t see it written anywhere in the bible that somehow you will be less ‘guilty’ for killing a believer..
Maimba Kahara per OP it matters in the following A believer goes to haven, a non believer goes to hell. For eternity How can you say that it does not matter one little bit?
Troy Day i don’t believe in Chance or fate. I do believe everything occurs according to a certain plan and divine order. So I guess that should answer your question.
If the possibility terrifies you you should probably be a CO.
Herb Van Schoick are you a CO or just a Calvinist ?
Troy Day I’m a calvinist who is not sure if he could ever take another man’s life under any circumstance. Fortunately I’ve never been forced to make that decision.
I would not want on my conscience the death of any, but if needful for the sake of others who also may not know the Lord, I would shoot the legs out from under them, only if need be. “It is not God’s will, that ANY perish.” …. Blessings ….
Yes, most likely that’s who we kill in combat. Political science 101.
I’ve served in war and I’ve made decisions that resulted in lives being taken. I know, respect and love many warriors. Some of which, have fought to save lives, Christian lives, from ISIS. Some of which, including myself, have fought to preserve rule of law and governance, to allow Christians to worship freely. Unfortunately, some are sent to fight for lesser noble reasons, but “theirs is not to reason why,. theirs but to do and die.”
If you live in the western society, YOU determine who dies. Every product you purchase, every vote you cast, every “human right” you advocate for feeds the machine that I and thousands of others have served. Usually war is necessary, usually war is between people of differing ideology. Don’t play this thought experiment and pretend like you’re righteous, because your actions as a citizen and a consumer make YOU just as culpable as the warriors who pull the trigger.
The Isrealites killed in war. With God going with them.
was any of them saved by Jesus Christ as asked in the OP?
Troy Day Jesus is God of course He was there.
Elijah cried out ” I am the only one left and they seek to kill me” God told him ” I have reserved for myself 8,000 that have not bowed the knee to baal” so yes God had His people then even when Israel turned to other gods( as a nation) and He has His people now
Wynni Wagner The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Troy Day i trust Jesus to carry it for me. ” Come to me all who are burdened and I will give you rest”- Jesus
Shoo tough one OP. good question.
yes indeed Thank you Nikki Sheppick
Daniel P Campbell your question if you are really a vet
How do you know for sure they’re a non believer? Do you stop to ask them?
is just unsound. How did I know? Well as delta I was always briefed on the target YES this included religious affiliation If you’ve ever seen a delta brief religions is always one of the tabs
BUT as Joshua White soundly stated YES If the enemy is covered with black rag screaming Allah akbar or whatever they do wile attacking you pretty much know right then and on the spot If you were just a radio controller I guess it didnt matter very much
Troy Day
I am a vet and no, it’s not unsound because you don’t know
Daniel P Campbell you do know for the reasons I stated above Not sure how you just didnt know 🙂
Troy Day
What does my MOS or military affiliation have to do with the OP.? This is not personal, stop trying to make it so
Daniel P Campbell what combat you were IN that you did NOT know I am just wondering 🙂 You made it personal when you said you were a vet and you know all about it So I am just wondering and asking you
Troy Day
None of your business. Stop making this personal!!
We should not join the army then.
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Could you let a none believer kill you in battle?
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
i don’t think I could let myself just die.
If your a soldier that’s part of the job you have chosen.
That’s your choice
Romans 8;29. Chosen before the creation.
chosen for WHAT?
Yes…we all have a time appointed by God when we will meet him. Killing in combat does not change that truth.
It is all in God’s hands. He is Sovereign!
Murder is wrong…murder can and has happened in combat…It is sin … still wrong…
Killing to stop evil is entirely different taking a combatants life to defend innocent is necessary… God is the final judge.
All Biblical teaching is to be followed regardless of feelings.
so you are OK with sending ppl to hell?
Troy Day God is…He is judge not me.
How would one know if the other has heard the Gospel or not? This kind of hypothetical, while an interesting mental exercise, is ultimately unanswerable.
if you have a Muslim coming at you with a bomb vest wouldnt you just know to assume ?
Troy Day no. He may have heard the Gospel, but not accepted it. Remember what happens when you assume…
“There are no atheists in foxholes”
Looking forward to see the pushback on this old phrase
Jer Hatch that’s not true… I’ve been to Iraq twice, and Afghanistan once and while some soldiers do become more religious because of their experience, I saw a lot who rejected religion, especially Jesus because of what they saw
I would agree with Rob. I found religion very tormenting while I was in Iraq. I knew there was a God…but which one? They all fought in the name of their god and it really turned me away from religion and God for 10 years after.
OFF topic The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Why would you kill another in the first place when the bible is clear on loving your neighbour as your self? This type of question is flawed and self destructs the very principle of love and morality and the violates the highest ethic of supreme love. If you call yourself “saved by grace” then killing in combat or for any other reason is out of the window.
Shanil Wickremaratne we are called to protect and defend others who are weaker or cannot defend themselves. In the right side of a war, when there is a right side, that’s what we are doing. Are you telling me that you would not kill to save another who was about to be harmed? The bible says do not murder, which unfortunately has been translated “do not kill”. But they do not mean the same thing. God ordered the Israelites into battle many times to rid the earth of an evil empire.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
—
They were without excuse then and they are even more so without excuse now.
This hypothetical assumes God would allow to be killed a person who has never heard the Gospel.
—
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
—
God may preserve a pagan in war who has not heard specifically so what they have seen may cause them to
Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
—
And those vss are soon to come to pass specifically against the Hamas Muslims and the Arab Muslims calling themselves Palestinians, and the rest of the Muslims surrounding Israel.
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Troy Day
Well, I’ll never be in the military. But can say my ret LE hubbie didn’t have issue putting a cap in a perp.
And if some nefarious thug comes to my house…I’d drop him right there with out a blink and sleep like a baby.
So…yeah. It’s all good.
Killing is always the last resort (notice the OT command is not to murder, else when God ordered military and other killing He would wrong). When faced with the choice of defending my neighbor from foreign aggression (AKA loving your neighbor) or letting him die, as a military man I will always choose defending my neighbor. That’s a hard choice, but the aggressor is the one making that choice. Fortunately we can be strong enough to deter such behavior, most of the time. Same thing goes when a thug tries to break into my home and cause injury. He will die. Period. God gave a man strength to defend his family. If you don’t take your responsibility seriously, you are not a man.
no difference in killing or murder in the OT Hebrew The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Troy Day untrue. God commands killing under certain circumstances, one of which is murder. There is quite a bit of confusion if God says you shall not kill, and in the next breath commands the Hebrews to kill every man, woman, child and animal in a town.
Speaking here as a believer, a U.S. citizen, and as drafted veteran of the U.S. Army:
(As an aside I had five uncles serve in WWII. They were all Christians.)
As an identifiable group, if U.S. Christians don’t serve in the military, what other identifiable group will do it?
Could the argument be made that it is the duty of Christians to serve in the U.S. military?
(I use U.S. here because service in the military is completely voluntary at this point in history.)
x-delta here speaking – The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
In combat it’s kill or be killed. There is no time to evangelize.
so you are fine with sending them to hell with a happy face ?
If he’s coming at me or someone I love to hurt or kill us, you bet.
Did JESUS do that when they were coming AT him ?
Troy Day Jesus had an ordained purpose to die for mankind.
Me, not so much. When the rioters come for your wife and kids, you’re going to what, just hand them over so they can beaten, tortured, possibly raped and killed? Does your wife know that she’s on her own? That it’s completely up to her to take care of your kids because you’re going to….talk the rioters to death? You won’t get the chance.
Show me one scripture which says we are forbidden to protect ourselves from evil. The commandment says not to murder. It says nothing about self-defense. In the parable of the strongman, he guards his house and his possessions are safe Luke 11:21. In Luke 10 and James 4:7 we are given authority over evil in this world. What did Jesus do when He learned that people were being cheated in the Temple? He defended them. Granted, He didn’t kill anyone, but the victims weren’t being killed either, nor were they being beaten and left to die while their homes and businesses burned. Remember, anyone who goes to hell goes to hell because they chose to go there.
It’s fine with me if you think I’m being harsh. God will be far harsher when they stand before Him on Judgment Day.
Augustine framed the concepts of original sin and just war as they are understood in the West. When Rome fell and the faith of many Christians was shaken, Augustine wrote The City of God, in which he defended Christianity from pagan critics and developed the concept of the Church as a spiritual City of God, distinct from the material City of Man. Augustine’s work defined the start of the medieval worldview, an outlook that would later be firmly established by Pope Gregory the Great
WERE THE CHURCH FATHERS PACIFISTS?
The answer of the pre-Constantinian church was negative; the Christian as an agent of God for reconciliation has other things to do than to be in police service . . . . Christians saw their task as one of patient suffering, not taking over themselves the work of the police . . . . The post-Constantinian church obviously accepted government service by Christians, but for reasons which cannot be deemed adequate.
Consider his judicious conclusion on Tertullian:
In the end, how is Tertullian to be interpreted? We have noted the willingness in his earlier writing to refute the accusation that Christians were indifferent to—or enemies of—the state. His response is that “we fight alongside you and serve in your army.” In his later response he waxes increasingly resistant to the idea of Christians serving in the Roman army: there exists a fundamental incompatibility between the two masters of Christ and military service. We might reasonably conclude that his later argument against soldiering and warfare is set forth precisely because not all Christians agreed with him. And indeed this response is understandable since by this time baptized Christians were joining the army. Tertullian’s increasingly rigorist stance, however, is neither a necessary outcome of the position of the apostolic Church nor a reflection of the New Testament’s ethical teaching. And because of his wholesale condemnation of civil service (including serving as a ruler), literature, art, forms of dress, and signing of contracts, his opposition to military service is properly understood as part of the logic of apostasy.
Or Origen:
What is noteworthy in Origen’s argument is that Christians do participate responsibly in civil affairs, and they do support the governing authorities, since Scripture requires as much. Thus, unlike contemporary pacifist interpretations of early Christian history, Origen not only does not deny that Christians are serving in the military (a matter which Tertullian also concedes, even when both are opposed), but more importantly, he sees the need for Christians to support the authorities and contribute to a just and civil society even when he believes that Christians should not be soldiers.
FINALLY
JESUS in the NT – Revelation is presented as warrior conquering the world destroying all unbelievers in hell
Killing should always be a last resort, when all other options are off the table. When all other options have been taken off the table, I’d say yes, I am quite prepared to kill, and would feel no guilt. The Gospel is irrelevant in that scenario. Whether he’s heard it or not, he’s in no position to hear it now, and I’m in no position to give it.
SO Jesus should have not told Peter to stop and just called the 12 legions of angels ?
Apples and oranges, Troy. Apples and oranges. Did you forget He’d just told all the disciples “he who has no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one”? Peter lashed out against legitimate government authorities during a relatively peaceful arrest. You do that, you deserve what comes to you. There’s a difference between LIVING by the sword (having a disposition towards violence) and SURVIVING by the sword (defaulting towards peace, but resorting to violence if necessary). There’s also the fact that while Jesus’ death was necessary to atone for sins, I am nothing. I am worth nothing to anyone dead.
Yes it is war and “do your job”
Glen Earl Person God is sovereign, not one soul will leave this world without God’s justice being successfully accomplished.
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Yes because , if not , you might meet Jesus before the other guy.
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Do you stop to ask if he has heard the gospel before you kill him. Would be a quick war then.
JESUS my Sheep Hear , I know them , they follow.
If the don’t hear they are not His Sheep
Where in the New Testament does it condone killing?
Romans 12:19
Strange question. How would I know if he never heard the Gospel? The fact that one does NOT know who is a believer and who isn’t is one reason why the military is NOT for believers. You may kill another believer unknowingly. However, if I somehow had advanced knowledge that he had not heard the Gospel, I still would not kill him UNLESS Yeshua or YHWH Himself told me to as He did with Israel.
Yes
Yep. If yes got a gun pointed at me it’s either him or me and I have a wife depending on me. Wouldn’t think twice. At that point it doesn’t matter if he’s heard the gospel it’s a matter of am I coming home alive or dead.
?
Yes I can. And I can say that because I have.
How would you know what that person knows?
If your blowing up my troops …I will pray before I take you out. I want you saved. God wants you saved but you are not allowed to destroy others He wants to save!
so you play god with them and send them to hell?
Apparently so
Hell yeah!
Yep
That is very open-ended. A lot depends. Was he wounded and/or no longer a threat? Was he charging my position? Was he in need of some other service?
The big question would be was he trying to take my or my platoon’s lives?
The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Troy Day excellent point. My father was a veteran of Korea. He always remarked that until a person is in that situation, you just do not know with 100% certainty.
There are a lot of people being killed around the world that do not know Jesus and I doubt that in combat, they first ask the person if they are saved!
BOTTOM LINE if you kill them they go straight to hell and you are to blame for eternity #noughSaid
Troy Day nope
the BIBLE says their blood is on your hand You can nope as much as you’d like on Judgment Day #YapYouCan 🙂
Troy Day, that scripture refers to rebuking a lost person. Show scripture to prove your point, or it’s irrelative. We didn’t check their, “spiritual status” on the battlefield. What an uninformed and misguided question. Tho should not commit MURDER, not kill out of necessity. If that is the case then God is sinning.
Troy Day cite the scripture stating this please.
Yes.
There’s a time to…….Solomon says
time to no time to you still send them to hell The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Well, the key word for me is in combat. What kind of combat? Is it war like combat? Because if it is, then that is the consequence of war. I mean, who during a war attempts to stop guns shooting and says… WAAAIIITTT. BEFORE I KILL YOU ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN? thats just not realistic.
If it’s a vicious street combat,
Im not going to stop and ask either, neither am I gonna going ask you before battle.
The children of Israel never stopped wars, battles or conflicts to find out if there were Jews on the other team. They were ordered to destroy and that was that.
combat no combat you still send them to hell The KEY questions here is Are you ready to carry THAT responsibility
Troy Day well, how do you know whether i sent them to hell? Im not God to send anyone anywhere.
How do you know if the gospel were not already preached to him time and time again but he refused it. The responsibility of hell doesn’t lie on the evangelical, it lies on the shoulders of the one who hears the gospel. Why blame me or anyone for that matter for sending him to hell, just cause he died by my hand? How do you know o son of man, whether or not, i was being used as a Vessel by god to rid the earth of him? What if i did gods will unbeknownst to you?
I mean again biblically speaking, God used prophets to kill, he used shepards to kill, there was a reason behind it.
Yeshua Elijah where would a muslim with a bomb vest go according to your Bible /
Troy Day i really don’t know, honestly. Sitting here thinking about it. I am surrounded by flowers ? I planted with my rescued cats ? and dogs ? on my porch and it makes me think of how valuable life is. I honestly hope I am never in that situation….
Troy Day according to the bible(」ﾟﾛﾟ)｣ hell. However… Again its not on the preacher or the evangelical. We do our part to share the word, if they dont receive it thats on them.
But, even at the last second i believe God can save, just like he saved the thief on the cross.
Yes
I don’t know. That is really hard. I have trouble killing a lady ? bug!
Yes, if he tries to kill me or my family, I would defend them. If I am able to pin him down or neutralize him then I will send him to jail and let him live but if I dont have other option then I will.
Grace and Mercy of God will be applied on Judgement day.
No.
1.) Read your biblical history… who was it that God asked His people to war against… and killed in the taking over of the promised land…that were there in their occulting cultures and traditionally warring involves death…? Who was it that God killed in the flood? 2.) there is no one that has not had opportunity for God … Romans 1:20.
lets start with BIBLICAL history being kind of my specialty What did GOD tell Cain when he became the first killer of men ?
Yes
I strongly doubt you can kill anyone
but then again you may be a serial …