Is water baptism necessary to be saved?

It is a modern novel doctrine to teach that Baptism is unnecessary.

The Thief on the Cross

Three scriptural reasons why this is an invalid argument

Some will ask, “Well, what about the thief on the cross? He wasn’t baptized and Jesus very clearly told him he would be in paradise. Doesn’t that prove baptism in not essential for salvation?”

This is a perfectly valid question and makes sense at first glance.

However, the problem arises from not having a clear understanding of what baptism represents and what the scriptures tell us about it. According to Romans 6:3-6, baptism represents being unified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. The problem with the thief on the cross when Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise, is that Jesus was still alive. Christ had not yet died or been buried, so He had certainly not risen yet either. Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.

I) The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.

II) But besides that, when Christ was on this earth, He had the authority to forgive people of their sins. Look at Mark 2:9-12:

Which is easier, to tell the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven;’ or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your bed, and walk? ‘But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — he said to the paralytic — “I tell you, arise, take up your mat, and go to your house.” He arose, and immediately took up the mat, and went out in front of them all; so that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

When Christ was on the cross, He was still on this earth. And He had the authority to forgive sins.

III) An additional point to consider: To even position the argument about the thief on the cross one must be able to prove he was never baptized. But consider the following verses:

Mark 1:4-5
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then ALL the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

So who can really say the thief was never baptized before he was crucified? According to Mark 1:4-5 there is a plausible chance he was!

Oh well

The point is hermeneutically valid – that is all that matters. You cannot prove otherwise. Simple

115-188 THEOPHILUS “On the fifth day the living creatures which proceed from the waters were produced, through which also is revealed the manifold wisdom of God in these things; for who could count their multitude and various kinds? Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men’s being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration, as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God.” (Theophilus, “To Autolycus,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 101)

115AD Second Clement “For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7)

120-205 AD IRENAEUS “As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, “Fragments From Lost Writings”, no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)

120-205 AD IRENAEUS “This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith.” (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, ‘the waters’ were the first to receive the precept ‘to bring forth living creatures.’ Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)

140-230 AD Tertullian “Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins” (Baptism 7:2).

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, ‘For Christ sent me not to baptize;’ as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the ‘peacemaking’ apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent ‘not to baptize, but to preach.’ For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizing withal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 676)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith… The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “How mighty is the grace of water, in the sight of God and His Christ, for the confirmation of baptism! Never is Christ without water: if, that is, He is Himself baptized in water; inaugurates in water the first rudimentary displays of his power, when invited to the wedding; invites the thirsty, when He makes a discourse, to Himself being living water; approves, when teaching concerning love, among works of charity, the cup of water offered to a poor child; recruits His strength at a well; walks over the water; willingly crosses the sea; ministers water to his disciples. Onward even to the passion does the witness of baptism last: while He is being surrendered to the cross, water intervenes; witness Pilate’s hands: when He is wounded, forth from His side bursts water; witness the soldier’s lance!… True and stable faith is baptized with water, unto salvation; pretended and weak faith is baptized with fire, unto judgment.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 673, 674)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “The prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none’ chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 674-675)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “What more disgraceful than immodesties? If, moreover, even from a ‘brother’ who ‘walketh idly’ he warns the Thessalonians to withdraw themselves, how much more withal from a fornicator! For these are the deliberate judgments of Christ, ‘loving the Church,’ who ‘hath delivered Himself up for her, that He may sanctify her (purifying her utterly by the laver of water) in the word, that He may present the Church to Himself glorious, not having stain or wrinkle’ – of course after the laver – ‘but that she may be holy and without reproach; thereafter, to wit, being ‘without wrinkle’ as a virgin, ‘without stain’ (of fornication) as a spouse, ‘without disgrace’ (of vileness), as having been ‘utterly purified.'” (Tertullian, “On Modesty,” 217 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, pg. 94)

140-230 AD TERTULLIAN This is in agreement to the context of the words of John the Baptist when he prophesied of the baptism of fire. Referring to Jesus, John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (comment on Matthew 3:11-12).

200 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ?” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388)

200 AD Cyprian of Carthage “While I was lying in darkness . . . I thought it indeed difficult and hard to believe . . . that divine mercy was promised for my salvation, so that anyone might be born again and quickened unto a new life by the laver of the saving water, he might put off what he had been before, and, although the structure of the body remained, he might change himself in soul and mind. . . . But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of rebirth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man” (To Donatus 3)

200 AD HERMAS “And I said, ‘I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sin.’ He said to me, ‘That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case.'” (Hermas, “The Shepherd,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 22)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Aurelius of Utica said: Since the apostle says that we are not to communicate with other people’s sins, what else does he do but communicate with other people’s sins, who holds communion with heretics without the Church’s baptism? And therefore I judge that heretics must be baptized, that they may receive forgiveness of their sins; and thus communion may be had with them.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 569.)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Caecilius of Bilta said: I know only one baptism in the Church, and none out of the Church. This one will be here, where there is the true hope and the certain faith. For thus it is written: ‘One faith, one hope, one baptism;’ not among heretics, where there is no hope, and the faith is false, where all things are carried on by lying.” (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Marcellus of Zama said: Since sins are not remitted saved in the baptism of the Church, he who does not baptize a heretic holds communion with a sinner.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 570)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Nicomedes of Segermae said: My opinion is this, that heretics coming to the Church should be baptized, for the reason that among sinners without they can obtain no remission of sins. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Novatus of Thamugada said: Although we know that all the Scriptures give witness concerning the saving baptism, still we ought to declare our faith, that heretics and schismatics who come to the Church, and appear to have been falsely baptized, ought to be baptized in the everlasting fountain; and therefore, according to the testimony of the Scriptures, and according to the decree of our colleagues, men of most holy memory, that all schismatics and heretics who are converted to the Church must be baptized; and moreover, that those who appeared to have been ordained must be received among lay people. (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victor of Gor said: Since sins are not remitted save in the baptism of the Church, he who admits a heretic to communion without baptism does two things against reason: he does not cleanse the heretics, and he befouls the Christians.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victoricus of Thabraca said: If heretics are allowed to baptize and to give remission of sins, wherefore do we brand them with infamy and call them heretics?” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE Dativus of Badis said: We, as far as in us lies, do not hold communion with heretics, unless they have been baptized in the Church, and have received remission of their sins.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE Felix of Bagai said: As, when the blind leads the blind, they fall together into the ditch; so, when the heretic baptizes a heretic, they fall together into death. And therefore a heretic must be baptized and made alive, lest we who are alive should hold communion with the dead. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)

200-258 AD CARTHAGE Nemesianus of Thubunae said: That the baptism which heretics and schismatics bestow is not the true one, is everywhere declared in the Holy Scriptures, since their very leading men are false Christs and false prophets, as the Lord says by Solomon: ‘He who trusteth in that which is false. he feedeth the winds…’ And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 566.)

200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But as often as water is named alone in the Holy Scriptures, baptism is referred to, as we see intimated in Isaiah: ‘Remember not,’ says he, ‘the former things, and consider not the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing, which shall now spring forth; and ye shall know it. I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry place, to give drink to my elected people, my people whom I have purchased, that they might show forth my praise.’ There God foretold by the prophet, that among the nations, in places which previously had been dry, rivers should afterwards flow plenteously, and should provide water for the elected people of God, that is, for those who were made sons of God by the generation of baptism…. Christ… cries and says, ‘If any man thirst, let him come and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture saith, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’ And that it might be more evident that the Lord is speaking there, not of the cup, but of baptism, the Scripture adds, saying, ‘But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive.’ For by baptism the Holy Spirit is received… As also, in another place, the Lord speaks to the Samaritan woman, saying, ‘Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again; but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall not thirst for ever.’ By which is also signified the very baptism of saving water, which indeed is once received, and is not again repeated..” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 360)

200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But if the baptism of heretics can have the regeneration of the second birth, those who are baptized among them must be counted not heretics, but children of God. For the second birth, which occurs in baptism, begets sons of God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 393)

200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ? For it is the Church alone which, conjoined and united with Christ, spiritually bears sons; as the same apostle again says, ‘Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it with the washing of water.’ If, then, she is the beloved and spouse who alone is sanctified by Christ, and alone is cleansed by His washing, it is manifest that heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, nor can be cleansed nor sanctified by His washing, cannot bear sons to God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388)

200-258 AD CYPRIAN “For he who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually re-formed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit; since the apostle says, ‘As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.’ (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 387-388)

200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Moreover, Peter himself… has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved, except by the one only baptism of one Church. ‘In the ark,’ says he, ‘of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, as also baptism shall in like manner save you.’ In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! For as, in that baptism of the world in which its ancient iniquity was purged away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water, so neither can he appear to be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark. (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 389)

200-258 AD Cyprian, said of his own baptism, “Considering my character at the time, I used to regard it as a difficult matter that a man should be able to be born again…. Or that a man who had been revived to a new life in the bath of saving water could be able to put off what he had formerly been-that he could be changed in heart and soul, while retaining his physical body…. For as I myself was held in bonds by the innumerable errors of my previous life, from which I did not believe that I could by possibility be delivered, so I was disposed to acquiesce in my clinging vices, and because I despaired of better things, I used to indulge my sins as if they were actually a part of me, inherent in me. But later, by the help of the water of new birth, the stain of former years was washed away, and a light from above-serene and pure was infused into my reconciled heart. Then through the Spirit breathed from heaven, a second birth restored me to a new man.” (Cyprian To Donatus sec. 3, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 276)

203 AD Tertullian “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism–which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes–by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1).

203 AD Tertullian “[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, `Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'” (Baptism 12:1).

215 AD Hippolytus “And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will” (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1).

217 AD Hippolytus “The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8).

221 AD The Recognitions of Clement “But you will perhaps say, `What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: `Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9).

240 AD Testimonies Concerning the Jews “That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5] . . . ‘ Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works” (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25-26).

248 AD Origen “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which are washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9).

345 AD CYRIL “For all things whatsoever thou hast done shall be forgiven thee, whether it be fornication, or adultery, or any other such form of licentiousness. What can be greater sin than to crucify Christ? Yet even of this Baptism can purify. For so spake Peter to the three thousand who came to him, to those who had crucified the Lord, when they asked him, saying, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ For the wound is great. Thou hast made us think of our fall, O Peter, by saying, ‘Ye killed the Prince of Life.’ What salve is there for so great a wound? What cleansing for such foulness? What is the salvation for such perdition? ‘Repent,’ saith he, ‘and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ O unspeakable lovingkindness of God! They have no hope of being saved, and yet they are thought worthy of the Holy Ghost. Thou seest the power of Baptism!” (Cyril of Jerusalem, 348AD, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16)

345 AD CYRIL “The Lord… has granted repentance at Baptism, in order that we may cast off the chief – nay rather the whole burden of our sins, and having received the seal by the Holy Ghost, may be made heirs of eternal life.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16)

345 AD CYRIL “When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Ghost: for without both thou canst not possibly be made perfect. It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He saith, ‘Except a man be born anew’ (and he adds the words) ‘of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ Neither doth he that is baptized with water, but not found worthy of the Spirit, receive the grace in perfection. Nor if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but receive not the seal by water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “Catechetical Lectures,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 15.)

350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12).

350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, `Unless a man be born again’ and he adds the words `of water and of the Spirit’ `he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it” (Catechetical Lectures 3:4).

360 AD Athanasius “[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33]).

387 AD John Chrysostom “[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed Head” (The Priesthood 3:5-6).

388 AD Gregory Nazianz “Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism 7-8).

390 AD CRYSOSTOM “In the Law, he that hath sin is punished; here, he that hath sins cometh and is baptized and is made righteous, and being made righteous, he liveth, being delivered from the death of sin… For in Baptism the sins are buried, the former things are blotted out, the man is made alive, the entire grace written upon his heart as it were a table.” (John Crysostom, “Homilies on Second Corinthians,” 390 AD, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 12, pg. 307)

400 AD The Apostolic Constitutions “Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13] . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, `Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, `He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned'” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15).

419 AD Augustine “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ–it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven'” [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7).

75 AD The Letter of Barnabas “Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1Letter of Barnabas 11:1)

80 AD Hermas “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is'” (The Shepherd 4:3:1)

CONSTITUTIONS “Let him, therefore, who is to be taught the truth in regard to piety be instructed before his baptism in the knowledge of the unbegotten God, in the understanding of His only begotten son, in the assured acknowledgment of the Holy Ghost…. Adore God, the Lord of the whole world, and thank Him for His creation, for His sending Christ His only begotten Son, that He might save man by blotting out his transgressions, and that He might remit ungodliness and sins, and might ‘purify him from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,’ and sanctify man according to the good pleasure of His kindness, that He might inspire him with the knowledge of His will, and enlighten the eyes of his heart to consider of His wonderful works, and make known to him the judgments of righteousness, that so he might hate every way of iniquity, and walk in the way of truth, that he might be thought worthy of the laver of regeneration, to the adoption of sons, which is in Christ, that ‘being planted together in the likeness of the death of Christ,’ in hopes of a glorious communication, he may be mortified to sin, and may live to God, as to his mind, and word, and deed, and may be numbered together in the book of the living. ” (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 475-476)

FIRMILIAN “But indeed you are worse than all heretics. For when many, as soon as their error is known, come over to you from them that they may receive the true light of the Church, you assist the errors of those who come, and, obscuring the light of ecclesiastical truth, you heap up the darkness of the heretical night; and although they confess that they are in sins, and have no grace, and therefore come to the Church, you take away from them remission of sins, which is given in baptism, by saying that they are already baptized and have obtained the grace of the Church outside the Church, and you do not perceive that their souls will be required at your hands when the day of judgment shall come.” (Firmilian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 396)

PHILIP “Nicanora having thus spoken, the Apostle Philip, along with Bartholomew and Mariamme and those with them, prayed for her to God, saying: Thou who bringest the dead to life, Christ Jesus the Lord, who hast freed us through baptism from the slavery of death, completely deliver also this woman from the error, the enemy; make her alive in Thy life, and perfect her in Thy perfection.” (“The Acts of Philip,” Author unknown, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 498)

THEODOTUS “Now, regeneration is by water and spirit, as was all creation: ‘For the Spirit of God moved on the deep.’ And for this reason the Savior was baptized, though not Himself needing to be so, in order that He might consecrate the whole water for those who were being regenerated. Thus it is not the body only, but the soul, that we cleanse.” (“Excerpts of Theodotus,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 44)

It doesn’t matter… lol

This doesn’t really prove your case… there have always been some that have rebelled against truth

This has been fun. Thank you both for the discussion.

Any questions

Troy Day. Sometimes you are just silly… really silly

I don’t need to. It does not apply to this thread…

Christopher Noel Boggess was the thief on the cross baptized in water?

“…this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” (1 Peter 3:21)

Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ?

Bill Terrell has made a GREAT point
IF
God has no problem baptizing someone with the Holy Spirit without them being water baptized
THEN
God has no problem saving someone without them being water baptized

Christopher Noel Boggess is it possible your insisting on water baptism for salvation be a residue of previous involvement with oneness ?

Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2:38 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ? http://probible.net/acts-238/

David Chambers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1TPn98v7O8

Troy day do you think god inteaded it to be that complicated were only very intelligent ppl would understand or simple were everyone could understand

Its not complicates ppl make it complicated

And not just baptism Link but actually washing with water. Many of those church fathers practiced sprinkling water and so on traditional stuff We already discussed this with the orthodox brother to some extent The Greek as we expressly shown here means this
repent for your sins
and as a result of your repentance be baptized – to put it simply

Here is the Greek discussion of acts 2:38 in full length http://probible.net/acts-238/

Paul’s image of baptism in Romans 6 is burial of the old man after death of the old man. The old man is dead through faith in Christ and the new man is alive regardless of whether or not the old man has been buried. But the old man needs to be buried in baptism so as not to corrupt the new man. Paul is alluding to one of the old Graeco-Roman practices of punishing a murderer by strapping the body of the victim to the back of the murderer. Eventually, the rotting corpse of the victim will kill the murderer. Paul is alluding to the need for baptism to bury the old man and not leave him to cause decay to the new. Grossly graphic, but apt.

The man the cross was not baptized therefore no is it ok yes it is a outward expression of your love of God in old testament it was known as the washing away of sin when dunked the old man dies when brought up the new man lives, the blood of Jesus washes away our sins the same way he became or baptizim our saving grace our holy of holys our everything he fulfilled on the cross at Calvary

How else they gonna wash away the old man?

Here’s a good starting post for you John David Barton

1 Peter 3:20-21
[20]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: In the days of Noah eight souls were saved by water. The next part starts with “antitupon” which means corresponding or like. A representation of being saved by baptism. Baptism is in the same manner as bringing forth the sacrifice for purification as a testimony of your cleansing. Even though you were clean, you were not accepted as clean until declared clean by your high priest. As Jesus is now our high priest, baptism is necessary to be accepted our declared cleansed as a testimony that our faith had saved us. Even though we were already saved by grace. Echastos or later days is the time of Jesus. Hebrews 1:2 1Peter 1:20

Like all Greeks born into Orthodoxy, I was baptized as a baby. Catholics and Anglicans likewise baptize (more like a sprinkle than a dip into water) babies. Therefore, if baptism in water was necessary for salvation, millions of people already lost.

Link Hudson how could Jesus be forsaken by God on the cross. If he is his own god person how could God leave him

no, but if a believer is not obedient to Jesus as Lord they might lose rewards in the Millennium.

No, salvation is by His grace alone, received by faith. Once saved, we will want to obey the Lord and be water baptised as a testimony to ourselves and others of what Jesus has done in our lives.

I think yes, in the course of a Christian’s life normally lived. But God can make exceptions for people with a love of Jesus who have poor theology about this,

Hummm, Christ thought it was.

Baptism is very cheap word in many churches Sad,
What is baptism ?
Do you really know who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit ?
Why we have to ….

When you break down 1 Peter 3:21 (not to mention all previous instruction in the Gospels and Acts) then yes.

21 The like figure – a model struck for us by another*

whereunto even baptism doth also now save us – baptized saves us immediately and henceforth*

(not – not merely, not only, context missed in many translations*

the putting away of the filth of the flesh, – discarding or putting down forever the moral depravity that is our humanity*

but – also or furthermore *

the answer of a good conscience toward God,) – the intellectual decision of changing the direction of your mindset and thought process away from the depravity to align your self with the mind of God*

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It is necessary “for” the saved, but not “to” be saved…

Yes.

Remove the water baptism. and give your version of “prepare the way…”

I can’t believe that people speak on this n don’t know what there talking about. St. John 3:1-3:8 verse 5 : Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of Water and of the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Verse 3 says the same. Repentance is death to sin. Water Baptism: by total submerged, as burial in the name of Jesus. Not titles, no usage of the name of JESUS you have no power. Then pray to be filled with the HOLY GHOST. Evidence of speaking in tongues as the spirit speaks out of you. One BAPTISM : that has 2 parts WATER n SPIRIT. Look up this Bible Study. INTO HIS MARVELOUS LIGHT. It will explain it.

I just wrote a blog which goes into a little detail on this subject.

http://billybobmeabooks.com/blog/plunge-into-baptism/

Emmett Smith is water baptism too broad?